Cayetano "Cat" Garza has been making webcomics longer than most people have been reading them. From anthropomorphic gag strips to autobiographical heartbreak comics, he seems to have tried it all. Now he's with moderntales.com, one of the first working subscriptions-based comic sites.
Here Cat talks about his earlier work, his new stuff, the emerging conventions of webcomic storytelling, and why we use emoticons.
NEAL: You've been at webcomics since 98?
CAT: Um, well since about 96-97, actually the website didn't officially get launched 'til 98.
NEAL: Were you on other sites?
CAT: I first started posting comics in 96 on my university's server.
NEAL: Is that around the time you met Scott McCloud?
CAT: When I met McCloud in 97 he'd already seen the stuff on my personal web page.
NEAL: How did you meet McCloud?
CAT: It was at SPX, back in 97, I believe. My friend Harold Buchholz had already met him and wanted to introduce me to him. I had no idea he'd be at that SPX. When I came up to the table, he puts out his hand and says, "it's nice to finally meet you". Man, I was completely aghast.
NEAL: You were already a fan of McCloud's, I'm sure?
CAT: I had a copy of Understanding Comics in my bag and had been reading it over and over since I'd gotten it. I was a HUGE fan.
NEAL: on the subject of McCloud, it seems like he gets a lot of heat for being "Mr. Webcomics Guy". Why do you think that is?
CAT: Well, I think it's because everyone was racing for the chance to call the shots in the new medium you know? If you're the first to recognize something and say this is "webcomics" then, you've got a foot in with the process of pioneering it. But McCloud wasn't thinking like that, he was just wanting to talk about theory and potential. Not wanting to "stake a claim".
NEAL: Seems like he gets a lot out of just discussing and analyzing.
CAT: Exactly. And he wasn't doing it for fame or recognition.
NEAL: So people perceive him as staking claim to webcomics?
CAT: Or they're just jealous that other people recognize his brilliance and want to talk to him first, you know? They want to be the ones doing the TV spot.
NEAL: Right... What I like is, not only is he a consummate artist and storyteller, but he has a great analytical mind, and can break things down very easily, to help define it...
CAT: Exactly. McCloud's talent is in being able to break something down that seems so familiar and show you the moving parts you didn't know made it work. He is a great spokesperson for ideas and that's what makes him the perfect candidate to represent us. But a lot of strip folks and others don't see it that way.
NEAL: Do you have thoughts on print's reluctance to recognize webcomics?
CAT: Well... it's been a tough few years because at first they just laughed at us, you know? “Webcomics? What? That's not gonna last...E Then, as people started to recognize it, they're having to concede its validity. Not easy to swallow your own words, usually. Conventions were interesting. So many people were so against it, and for no good reason either. Retailers hated us. "How are we gonna make money out of it?Emainstream comics artists said "no one's gonna read Superman online!Ealternative comics artists said "what about the beauty of paper and book design?"EWe've come a long way since 98, I'll tell you what...
But I'm one who loves to watch people experiment, you know? And just having James Kochalka involved with moderntales alone is a giant leap forward for legitimizing the new medium.
NEAL: Because he is a "print" guy?
CAT: And an "art for art's sake" guy. I mean, the Internet goes against a lot of traditional art/narrative conventions. Plus, look at this interview. It's amazing that we can communicate with our audience almost instantaneously.
NEAL: Yeah...but it also creates new conventions?
CAT: Yes, I think that's the strength of the new medium. Being able to invent new conventions, I suppose.
NEAL: Is that its biggest strength? New narrative conventions?
CAT: Also new ways to display images, being able to incorporate moving images, sound, interactivity, connectivity (chats, message boards, etc.)
NEAL: You've used animations before, how about sounds?
CAT: A couple times. I think sound needs to be more interactively based in comics.
NEAL: In what way?
CAT: When you click something to make something happen in a given story, sound is part of the interactive component. I think comics could be even more interactive online. Involve the reader even more
NEAL: How does that stand up to what we think is the "classic" definition of comics? Or McCloud's definition from Understanding? Do we get something else when we add animation, sounds, interactivity, etc?
CAT: I don't know... Maybe it doesn't. But then again, McCloud only wrote Understanding Comics in the last decade or so. Do we really know what "comics" are yet? Especially since we've been given a new way to display/write/create them. I don't think so. Intrinsically, the effect is almost the same, it's just the vehicle has changed. Plus kids today have a different experience than you or I had because they're exposed to a lot more stuff than we were.
NEAL: Maybe we define webcomics by defining what they aren't?
CAT: Maybe. They're not on paper.
NEAL: Like "Well, this isn't a cartoon, this isn't a movie, this isn't a song, etc. It must be a comic?
CAT: Right. Well, it's got to use the "language" of comics.
NEAL: Which are words and pictures?
CAT: Man, I think words and pictures are the same, you know? Letters are just simplified images. And images, well, they can "say a thousand words". It's just being able to balance the two together artistically as well as narratively. Does any of this make sense, or am I just rambling?!
NEAL: No, now you got me going...
CAT: Heh, cool
NEAL: Letters and pictures are perceived the same way, but they have different "meanings" for us. In a letter there is no implied meaning, no "searching out" of content etc. Letters mean what they mean, no interpretation...
CAT: Right, we perceive words different from pictures. Words are very final. No room for the viewer's own interpretation. However, online, it's a different story.
NEAL: In what way? Do words mean something else online?
CAT: Why do we need to use emoticons? Because there are some things you can't just "write." What's really interesting is that we have all these things to contend with, plus all the inner mechanisms of narrative/storytelling and what happens to it in an online environment. There's so many levels to this, you know?
NEAL: I guess people use smileys so we don't have to type "I'm smiling at you, cause I just said something that I want you take as a joke" Smileys are necessary online because we don't have the face to face personal experience of nonverbal communication.
But there are "smiley people" and "non smiley people".
CAT: True.
NEAL: I'm a non-smiley guy, I think... I never use them...
CAT: How old are you?
NEAL: 28....
CAT: Blows my age theory.
NEAL: What's your age theory?
CAT: Well... that people over the 35 threshold in, say, 97 didn't have as much "computer time" as kids that are just now getting into high school. This may play an important part in Internet comics' survival and hopefully popularity later on. You and I grew up with Atari and Nintendo. But Playstation, Gamecube, etcEAll new to us, But not to some 8 year old. Kids are getting online now. Kids 10, 20 years younger than us will have an even different perception about what we're doing right now.
NEAL: Do you think kids getting online now are looking for a more "immersive" experience that comics just doesn't have the ability to keep up with? Especially if they haven't grown up with the "language" of comics from print?
CAT: I'm not sure, maybe. When I was a kid, that's what I was looking for in comics.
NEAL: An “immersiveEexperience?
CAT: Oh, yeah. I mean, I was always attracted to the fringe stuff, the experimental.
NEAL: And you got it in comics? The way you could get it from film or video games?
CAT: Well, Ataris weren't as cool as Playstation, you know? And film, well... Heavy Metal was good, but animation's come a long way since. I guess it remains to be seen. Maybe all these kids reading webcomics today will influence a boom in another 5-10 years.
NEAL: Are you expecting that? Embracing it?
CAT: No, not really. It'd be silly to count on anything, but it'll be interesting to see what the results are.
NEAL: Do you think there's a proliferation of young webcomics readers? Or is it the same guys at the local comic store, but at home?
CAT: Not yet, but there hasn't been enough stuff done for them yet. No, I think more people want to read comics online then have to go to a store, you know? They're discovering from different sources. Coming at it from a different angle.
NEAL: How do you feel about print's stance now?
CAT: Print needs to be about print now. Like the Highwater books, or Top Shelf. The beauty of the printed volume will never die, but business-wise maybe. There's such a glut of stuff in print, and I think it's becoming more apparent that people want more than another glossy cover, 32 page black and white copy. And we're giving them something completely different because it doesn't have to appeal to a print audience.
NEAL: Does that make it easier to make "underground" or alternative" stuff online than in print?
CAT: I think it would be easier, but I wouldn't want to discourage people like Jordan Crane from printing more lovely comics, and get online instead.
NEAL: Maybe instead of "underground" or "alternative," it should be "honest" or maybe "personal"?
CAT: Well, it can really be anything, which is what's so amazing. Genre restrictions are blown out of the water. You can just draw whatever you want and if people relate, you'll find some kind of readership online, instead of on a shelf in some comic shop where no one will see you.
NEAL: I remember McCloud talking about how he got more chess fans than comic fans to read "My Obsession With Chess".
CAT: Exactly. Which was one of the things he was trying to find out when he wrote it. It's a different world online and we're all still trying to find out just how much leeway we have.
NEAL: What do you mean by leeway? In terms of what is possible?
CAT: What we can and can't do artistically/narratively. Yeah, exactly. And a lot seems possible.
NEAL: I want to talk about your stuff specifically for a sec...
CAT: Ok, I'm not nervous...
NEAL: I really liked your first strip in 2002... #128. It's kind of different in that it is a very straightforward, almost "un-poetic" kind of comic. Different from a lot of your other stuff, I think...
CAT: Very raw, yeah... Well, I wasn't mincing my words anymore. A lot happened in Austin. I was gonna tell it like it was, as it were.
NEAL: I think a few of the strips from then are very raw.
CAT: Yeah, it's because I'd lived pretty hard for a little while, and it was what I needed.
NEAL: How come?
CAT: Well, I was a pretty sheltered guy when I left for Austin. I needed to really live my life closer to the bone. I had never really done that. To know what it's like to be on the street, or work a shitty job.
NEAL: Do the starving artist bit?
CAT: Right. Give it all to art and to life and let the rest sort itself out on its own. Some people saw this as pretty irresponsible, or that I was just a lazy hippie punk kid, or whatever. But it was about really getting to know myself and my art. And my heart, most of all.
NEAL: Did it work?
CAT: Well, I'm even more mellow than before and I think my drawing's gotten better. And I know what it's like to be poor and I found a really nice girl and I'm finally over my divorce. Yeah, I think it worked.
NEAL: That brings me to "FritzE Is that what “FritzEis about?
CAT: Yeah, I'd just lost my second corporate/tech job and broken up with a really nice girl I had nothing in common with, that had moved up to be with me. And I started to be poor and was doing the most drugs I'd ever done (and experimenting with a lot of new ones). Then “WhimvilleEcame out of that... plus it was an attempt to do a daily comic.
NEAL: So, "Whimville" came out of drugs?
CAT: Well, more my inner journey into the subconscious. The universe shifted ever so slightly to the left when I finally broke that final wall of reality, and it hasn't really been the same since. Not that I think it's bad.
NEAL: And how does “FritzEfit in?
CAT: It was a transition. And also, I was going through a lot in my life at the time. I was trying to sort through it all.
NEAL: Was the four-panel format part of it? Or something that rose out of it?
CAT: It was necessary for the daily format. Also, I wanted to appeal to the keensters. It sucks when you want to try to create "art" and have to worry about an "audience".
NEAL: Now you're at moderntales... how did that come about?
CAT: Joey interviewed me for the old talkaboutcomics.com and then told me about his idea. I'd been waiting for someone like Joey to come along with something like this. It was perfect. It's been a good run, so far, too. I'm pleased.
NEAL: Seems like, to make it viable, there needed to be someone who wasn't necessarily a creator, but more of and enthusiast to make it all work...
CAT: Yeah, totally. And Joey was that guy.
NEAL: Someone who could run it without having to worry about a comic...
CAT: Exactly, or ego.. You know?
NEAL: And how does it do? How many subscribers are there?
CAT: Well, apparently we've made quite a profit on it so far. We made back the investment capital in the first month, which was TOTALLY unexpected.
NEAL: And how much do you see as a creator?
CAT: Well, without going into specific numbers, because i don't know them right now, I got paid a pretty hefty advance and startout points and I'll be getting at least that in August, if not more. So, I'm happy. It hasn't cost me anything to do, except time and effort, which I'd been paying in spades for a couple years now.
NEAL: And, its time and effort that you would have done anyway...Is it a kind of thing that, once it's rolling, would see you making enough to make a living?
CAT: Well, hopefully. And especially with the single series site starting up soon too.
NEAL: Do you think there is room for other sites to adopt the MT model and make a living?
CAT: I hope so. I guess it depends on how MT does in the next couple years. I'd like to see more spots open up. I'm even contemplating doing my own eventually.
NEAL: Oh yeah?
CAT: applesauce.com, hopefully. Not *too* soon.
NEAL: How about the "ego thing"?
CAT: Well... hopefully I won't let it get in the way. I mean, the people I have planned for the lineup are all pretty nice.
NEAL: Do you think people will subscribe to more than one site? It seems like currently, there is free comics, and MT comics.
CAT: Sure, they buy more than one comic. And if we're charging what they'd normally pay per month for a comic, and give them that much more content, I think a lot of people would subscribe.
NEAL: Yeah, but online it's different, there is a lot of free content to contend with...
CAT: Well, the idea is to separate the "men from the boys". When people are prepared and want to spend money on looking at your work, you know? And if they really love the work, they'll want to support that artist and feed that artist, and, in return, the artist spends the rest of their lives trying to give them little stories to make them happy.
NEAL: That brings me to the Altcomics-Kurtz thing from comic-con...
CAT: Ah, I knew this would come up.
NEAL: I'm not too interested in the flame war between you two, it seems you guys put it to rest... What was interesting to me about all that, and this links back to MT and paying subscribers, is that there were many people that said they wouldn't sign up to MT because of Kurtz's stance. I think that was the first time in webcomics (to me at least) where people could withhold their money because of a creator... before the comics were free, so it didn't really matter whether people liked your views or not.
CAT: More than that, It just pisses me off that readers can be so fickle. They won't bother reading any of the other MT comics? I mean, really? Some people actually said they just read “WedlockEand nothing else. It's insane. You've got all these other comics to read, but if Kurtz didn't post, they didn't bother.
NEAL: But when you get paid (or I should say when someone is giving you their money) then you have to be aware of such things. Have a "public face" so to speak... seems like there are so many new areas when you get paid...
CAT: There are, for sure. And you're a "personality". It kind of makes me nervous to have things that bother me that wouldn't before. I don't want to yell at someone the way I got yelled at by one of my favorite alt-comics creators, the first time I met them.
NEAL: Which was?
CAT: Well, I shouldn't sayE“Milk and CheeseE
NEAL: Oh yeah? And you got chewed out?
CAT: It was all my fault, though. I was being a total geek weirdo. I put some of his original pages out of order. I nearly shit my pants when I saw how much they where, and I put them down quickly (and out of order, apparently) at a con a few years back. This is after I practically drooled all over him for a few minutes, being a total fanboy. God, that was humiliating.
NEAL: HAHA! And he layed into you?
CAT: "Oh, now they're just all out of order!!" I felt pretty small and insignificant at that point. My fault, I was being a geek.
NEAL: Are they worth less when they're out of order?
CAT: You betcha! That's the first thing you've got to learn when you start getting paid! I'm still a big Dorkin fan, and he's said "hi" to me before, sorta.
NEAL: So, who is doing the most innovative work right now, in webcomics?
CAT: Well, lessee there's McCloud, Jason Little, Merlin, John Barber, Farley, Farnon, Demian. All my pals, of course!
NEAL: Is there another San Diego webcomics panel planned this year?
CAT: Well, apparently there's not one on the program, but I'm not sure... I'd love to be on it if there is. I love doing panels.
NEAL: I'd be real interested to see the jump in attendance at it now...
CAT: I know. Last year nearly blew me away, and I was all smarmy from sleeping on the pier.
NEAL: You were sleeping on the pier?
CAT: Yeah, I was pretty broke. I didn't have a hotel last year. I drove in with some friends from Austin, stayed with them two nights, then wandered around one night and didn't sleep at all, then I slept on the pier. Then someone let me stay with them the final night. Long, strange trip. I owe someone a glass pipe from last year (I broke it).
NEAL: Back to MT, How did Cuentos de la Frontera come about?
CAT: Cuentos is like 5 years in the making. I had turned over the stories in my mind a million times. I wanted to do a story that incorporated all these great border tales and my love for Mexican culture and art, but I didn't want to get pegged as a great "Hispanic" cartoonist. I didn't want to do it in a Jimmy Smits, Mi Familia, homogenized way. Cuentos is for the valley, my home.
It comes from experience, nostalgia, and culture. Getting in touch with my roots. Reclaiming my mystic heritage.
NEAL: Is that important to you?
CAT: Very. But what's been accepted by American pop culture as "Hispanic," it makes me want to puke. I don't like that stuff as much as other people, because it's not the idea of being Mexican I grew up with, and I didn't want to get pegged that way by comics.
Plus, I grew up around so many different types of influences, and I didn't feel prepared to do it 'til just this year. When my grandfather died last year, while I was in Austin, that's when I knew I needed to make it a priority.
NEAL: Is Cuentos a pretty good idea of the Hispanic culture you grew up with?
CAT: Kind of. At least the setting and the euphemisms and the motivations of the main character Felix, those all kind of echo it. The "two roads lead in, two roads lead out" line, the isolation of the area from the rest of American society. It's a different world down here on the border.
NEAL: Is it different from a Mexican Hispanic upbringing? Being on one side of the border or the other?
CAT: Oh, for sure. Because we're so exposed to mainstream American society. My parents listened to the Beatles. But, Dad was from Monterrey, Mexico... for all intents and purposes a "wet-back," you know? But he was a traditional "greaser" in his heyday; black shades, black chinos, hair slicked back, black zip-up boots. Total bad ass. My Grandpa was a Zoot-suiter.
NEAL: So there's a dual experience for you? Or a blending on influence.
CAT: Well, you're raised with all the superstition, customs, etc. of being Mexican, but you're in the United States. And, in the case of my siblings and I, growing up in suburbia listening to heavy metal or whatever, watching cartoons, wanting to be the next Peyo, or Disney, But those aren't our legacies to claim. Because we're Hispanic you know?
NEAL: So where did you get the idea you couldn't fulfill that legacy, because you're Hispanic?
CAT: Well, see, I strove to fulfill that legacy, but at the expense of the rich cultural heritage I already had to draw from, that others find way more interesting than I do. And my (albeit self-imposed) duty to represent it for the next generation.
NEAL: But not to be the "Hispanic Disney."
CAT: No, to be Cayetano. Whatever that winds up meaning.
--Neal--
